Category: Let's talk
I was curious what people think of teachers who instruct the blind with a background in the NFB philosophy.Is it good or bad? Why or why not?
I imagine you'll get some pretty widely varying answers on this one. My answer is it completely depends on the teacher. I've met some teachers who work from the NFB philosophy who, in my opinion, were great at what they did. I've met others who work from that same background who were horrible, and I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy in the blind community. I think the NFB philosophy itself is sound, but teachers can either make really good use of it, or twist it up into something it was never intended to be, and do a lot of harm and damage to a student by lousy teaching.
I went to the CCB years ago. Most of my teachers were very good. I liked learning from other blind people, because I knew that at the end of their work day, when they went home, they took the same public transit system I had to. when they cooked meals or cleaned their houses, they were using the same methods I had to. When I was growing up with sighted teachers, sometimes it was hard for me to take them seriously in what they taught me because I knew that at the end of their work day, they drove themselves home, and did everything with their 20/20 vision.
But don't mistake me. Not all blind teachers are good, not all sighted ones are bad. I grew up with a sighted mobility teacher, who worked from the AER background and philosophy. Normally I disagree with just about everything AER says, but this woman was an excellent teacher. Later, at CCB, there were two blind travel instructors. The male teacher, who I worked with, was very good. The woman teacher they had at the time was terrible. She basically sat on her ass in her office, while sending her students out on their own before they were ready or had the skills to be safe or confident on their own. She did this in the name of structured discovery, which was BS. Hence my saying some teachers twist it into something it was not meant to be. There's a difference between guiding a student to figure things out, and using structured discovery to sit on your ass and not do your teaching job.
So in the end, philosophy is important, but more important is the work ethic, skill, and personality of the teacher themselves.
I went to LCB and had the honor of working with one of the best in the world, mr roland allen. He alway8s knew how to push me just enough, but never made me do anything I didn't think I could, and he also helped me learn things that took advantage of the sight I do have. I love the training, but there are some people who don't want to use sleep shades, or can't travel with them. If they don't have any usable sight, I don't think they should have to wear them but that is just me.
on the other hand, those of us with enough sight to need them, when we wear them in the heat, they fill with sweat and its just not a good feeling. I'm kind of glad that the totals have to wear them in this respect, because they can have a nasty face at the end of travel like the rest of us, lol.
Alicia, I agree with your post. Wait, even the totals had to wear the sleep shades at LCB? That seems a bit odd to me; if you don't have vision, why bother with the shades to begin with? And I do mean no vision. Light perception counts, even if that's not totally meaningful vision. I mean dark 24/7.
I wouldn't ware a blindfold (let's call it what it is) because I can't benefit from it. Adding unnecessary discomfort to an already stressful task does not benefit me in the slightest, and in this case it's illogical.
I find myself agreeing with post 2; depends on the teacher. Some are great. Others have been conditioned to expect maladjustment-to-blindness problems that I lack as a trueblind. I can't work with those.
Ah, it was probably Steve Patten and Monique. I hate the teachers who use structured discovery and sit on their ass. What are they getting paid for again?
Nathan, I understand you had a bad experience at ccb because they had problems teaching you with your hearing loss that you excelerated by playing drums with no ear protection, but I know for a fact that the instructers at ccb do not ever just sit around collecting money from the center. if that were the case it wouldn't be in the top 3 in the country.
I’ll admit, I don’t have a dog in the fight here, so to speak, however, this is an opinion about factors that help CCB excel, not the instruction.
My reason for saying so, is I’ve seen some students come out good, others not, so instructor’s skill might be lacking depending on the instructor.
I do believe it is possible for some of them to sit on their asses, so to speak, and earn money easy. It happens in any job.
It is the instructors job to find a way to teach the student.
The factors.
First, Denver if a city that is progressive in things for the disable. Even before CCB or other center like this, Denver had programs set up so young students and recently blind could learn the skills they required.
Denver has a wonderful transit system, and the location of the CCB is in what I’d call a sweet spot for using the services.
Location again, helps CCB with training. The way the streets, neighborhood and such are laid out.
Folks in Colorado donate bunches of money to these centers, so on top of what you pay, and what gets given to them, they’ve got financial means to give you the best equipment required.
Denver/Colorado has lots of industry, and companies, and top of citizen’s donations that generate this funding.
So, these things are factors in making CCB tops.
Seems to me, the sleep shade thing should be a choice, not forced on a student. Using all your resources should be taught to the best of your ability, not doing without. Sort of a balance between what you have, and what you are lacking.
An example of this would be using the feel or the Sun on your face, or visually seeing it, to help with direction when you need to know if you are heading south, North, or whatever.
This doesn’t always work, due to weather, but it is an asset.
If I had to be a student, this sleep shade would screw up my sense of direction. I can’t even wear baseball caps for this reason. I don’t have a problem with other type hats though.
Saying that, I’d want that choice.
Nathan, you're completely wrong about who the teachers were, and I don't appreciate you being such a jerk about it. I was at CCB well before Steve and Monique's time, so don't know a thing about them as teachers. I should have known there would be no point in responding to your post, since you're already so close-minded on the issue. Why even ask the question, if that's the case?
First of all, my hearing loss was not accelerated by playing drums. You know my eye condition has a hearing loss component, or maybe you did not. Now you do. CCB is okay, but they assume that all students are on the same level, which is the biggest issue with their instruction. Basically, they throw you in an apartment, and you either survive or you don't. They teach you cooking skills, but usually, it is in large groups, never one-on-one. Also, they never show you how to clean, or do skills with you while you are in the apartment like O & M. I did hear recently that CCB stopped renting the Pinnacle apartments, and now, they have some sort of apartment building like a hotel closer to the center and thus, the light rail station. It's about time. Another thing is that I'm not going to use those flimsy, good-for-nothing NFB canes. I will use whatever I want to, and no one will tell me otherwise. That's why during my stay at CCB I used a folding cane. If anyone said something, they could shove one of those NFB canes right up their ass for all I cared. The inhumane treatment of dog guides at these NFB centers-- at least at CCB is terrible. Let's ensure that the student can't use their dog, but tie him down all day. That is nonsense. The NFB still does not welcome dog guides. Some people might love the organization, but all it is to me is blind politics. Perhaps the ACB is better, but it no doubt is more politics. Personally, I have stories of people sitting on their asses at CCB. The tech instructor taught nothing, just structured discovery, and once, I had an O & M lesson where I had to get a printed bus schedule. The instructor never even came with me. What the fuck? I mean, seriously? If I got paid to do nothing, that would be an easy job. Lol.
I work and my dog is tied down all day. how is that different?
Who assesses these centers to determine the top 3, and what measurements do they use?
I had training based on the NFB method. Let me tell you how I was taught:
1: You have no other disability than blindness.
2: If you do, too bad, cause we don't care, till you cry from pain.
3: The O.&.M., was great. Plan your own route. I name the place, you plan the route. However, the instructor, Mary, went with me.
4: Clean your own bedroom, bathroom, and any other area. As I shared with 2 different people, it was dreadful!
I got most of the cleaning chores. One friend was able to learn from me teaching a little. The second roomy, left her portion a mess. I cleaned the whole bathroom. Everything but the tube got done. I was never taught how to clean a tub. My vacuuming skills sucked. I had to bring this old Curby, I think it was, and nearly died of back pain. But, they didn't care, even though, I had to use a walker most of the time I was there. All they saw to, was my ability to get up and downstairs. It took 4 months, from the time I arrived, to get the chairlift fixed.
5: Home-ecc: Ick! I had a time learning how to mop, and the teacher gave up on me.
Vaccuuming, failed that too. She'd pour oatmeal on the floor, and I had to suck it all up. She had me doing that, till I got sick of her looming over me saying: "Missed a spot." over and over. I got so mad, I just calmly put the vacuum back and said:
"You do it, then! I'm done!"
What I later found out is that she was pouring more oatmeal, as I was running the upright.
Bedmacking, I learned from this older lady from the blind school, and she was at least, nice enough to show me how. But, she never taught me about Murphy beds. I made the bed, fine. But the matress kept going in because the cupboard kept closing on me.
6: Typing teacher wasn't nice, but I had her for a minute or 2, then went on to computers.
7: Computers was cool. The teacher was blind, but had all the patience, I ever saw.
8: They forced Grad3 Braille on me, and I didn't get most of it.
On another note, I can't even get help learning UEB, now. Nothing's changed. Does anyone use grade3 anymore?
9 Shop: That was a good teacher. I impressed him. He was old and crotchety, so I nearly fainted, when he said with a smile: "How do you know all this stuff?"
When I told him I was raised chopping wood, repairing stuff, and learning what screw driver did what, he realized that my parents did something right. (Laughing).
10: I went back later, for updated computer training. That teacher, was all right. I don't think he understood my learning disability. But, it was less rigid, then. Plus, I came and left in a power chair, so either they accepted my balance problems, or they had to just get over it. Frankly, I don't care.
We got lots of blind folks with other stuff going on, here.
Nathan, if you got your hearing loss from playing drums, then, I was pounding on something, before I ever saw a drumset. I lost a small percentage, when I was about ten, or so. Mom told me, when I had a free hearing test. Don't we got the same thing wrong? I think? Different strain, but... I know! It was that toy drum Mom hated so much. (Laughing)!
I'm not trying to make anyone mad, but that was my terrible experience at a training center that wasn't "Known," for NFB training, but employed the theory.
The following months, I had a lot to learn. I almost got evicted, because I couldn't get the sticky off my floor of my apartment. The only way I could keep my unit, was to get a Personal Care Attendant. I was so humiliated, I cried! I had to have Physical Therapy on my back, because it was strained so bad, and that felt like I was slowly being tortured.
I'm not saying all the trainers are wrong. However, NFB methods seem to, as I was taught to think, have no "Room for give," or acceptance of someone with other disabilities; in cluding partial deafness.
LTE, you have access to your guide dog. NFB students, have to leave them in a room, while they go even to another building. I felt sorry for, and pittied the poor guide I saw. They made his handler lock him in her room for eight hours. Finally, she told them where to take their inhumane methods, and left. I hope she's doing well.
My mom wouldn't leave her pets home for eight hours, and she's not always the sweetest person. So how much nicer should someone with a guide dog, be to the creature intrusted to them?! This, was done wrongly. I hated it. We students, got to where we made sure that guide dog got lots of petting, and she would leave the residential part, so he got work. When she even brought him to school, they'd make her leave, and come back without him.
That's my experiences. Both good and bad.
Blessings,
Sarah
I have the same question. Who rates the centers, or schools?
I do wish guide dog schools would go back to making applicants know how to travel, or have basic travel skills before they can train.
A dog is absolutely no good to you if you can’t direct it.
If dog schools would do this, centers would have less of a problem housing people with pets.
Sure, you get some limited use, but a lost person with a guide dog, is still just lost.
If the NFB does not welcome dog guides,tell me, why do they have an active National association of Guide Dog users?
All I know is what I saw in my particular training. They may have a devision for dog guides. That won't change their training ways.
I know I remember they singled out the blind that were totals, and tried to get us to sit at a "Manners Table." We got the clue, and quit eating dinner with everyone else. We'd either eat later, or go out, when the money was there.
To me, it's not just the guide dog things. It's also the double standards. The "Us, Verses Them," environment. I personally think what I went through is not healthy. I can say I'm glad a lot's changed, since I went to where I did. I won't name my center publically. Ask me privately, and you'll get an answer.
Only person that I got along with was the director of the dorm, and that's gone. They let her go, too. She was strict, but she told you why she was.
Far as it goes, with learning and helping organize, my social services program is more helpful to me, and for that, I'm grateful. At 41, I can finally sort of keep organized. I still need help sometimes. I'm still not perfect.
One thing I did learn from experiences at the center. Nobody's a-gonna talk for you. You just gotta open your trap, and say what you're thinkin'. That's one thing, Mom taught me right.
Blessings,
Sarah
Personally, I never understood why they do that whole stupid blindfold thing. I mean sure, you want everyone to be on an equal playing field for whatever stupid reason, but blindfolds were always a pain to have on, even in the days of goalball. I would not want to wear one all day long. Not for the annoyance of not being able use whatever vision I have left, but because of the fact that they are annoyingly uncomfortable.
Totals don't wear sleep shades.
The canes are fine. Learn how to use one properly.
okay a few things
1, sarah, I have never seen a staff member act like this, and I have visited all three nfb training centers, blind inc, ccb, and lcb. I actually went to lcb. 2, they say even before you go that a big part of the training is cane travel. Personally I think that you should know how to travel before you get a dog, witch is why I didn't get a dog until after I left the center.
next, I know someone who went to the center with a dog. They didn't leave dogs in a room all day alone. It was always in an office with someone there, they could visit and park and feed and all that if they needed to, and could have the dog with them during lunch. my dog lays under my desk all day at work and he doesn't complain. Dogs sleep all day anyway, that's all mine does when I'm at work, he doesn't give a damn that he is sitting there for an 8 hour shift, because he knows he will get love and play and food and all that when I finish.
and to tell you the truth, the only bad stories I hear are from people who pretty much already had it set in his or her mind that the NFB is not a good thing before they go to the training. I never hear those who go in with an open mind and believing that they will come out of the training a better person tell bad stories like that, and I know and have met hundreds of center graduates.
lakeria is right. A cane is a cane is a cane. if it doesn't fold, fine. But it does the same thing as a folding cane does.
Personally, I can store my non folding cane magnatudes faster than someone who has to take the time to pull all of those links apart. when I leave, I don't make that racket of the cane unfolding and that is a sound everyone knows. It rings out like a church bell in a quiet office. I can just grab my cane that's leaning against the side of my cube and be off without even breaking stride.
and no, I don't say I can do that because I can see.
As someone who has not yet gone to the center, let me outline it how I see it.
The NFB system is all about stripping you down to the absolute basics, then
building you back up again. So partials wear sleep shades because that sight is
probably not going to be there all your life, a cane will be, so you learn to use
the cane well and not depend on your vision, that way when the sight does go
away, you're only losing one tool out of your toolbox instead of the whole
toolbox. They put you in an apartment and expect you to do it because that's
how life is. that's how you find out where you're weak. but, honestly, it sounds
to me like a bunch of people just don't want to really put in effort. Yeah, some
things are going to suck, but if you put in effort to learn them, you get over the
sucky parts really fast.
agree with the previous two posts. as someone who went to a training center, (the one in Minnesota), I attest to everything said. I was able t o take the dog outside during lunch, and she did well in the crate. People came and went; she was not alone in a dark room all day.
people don't like what they don't want to.
Well, I still have no opinion on this, because I've never gone to any centers.
I do say I can open my folding cane and not make any noise though.
This is all interesting reading.
The NFB, quite simply, is absolutely, 100%, undeniably atrocious. I created a thread about 8 years ago on here and talked about my experiences at the Reach center for the blind in Mississippi which has since been shut down. Mind all of you prior to this experience I had attended CBVI in Chester county PA near Philly. This was what I later learned to be a traditional type center. I learned more there than I did at that dreaded NFB center in MS. I laugh as I sit here reading these posts since, well, most of them are true. For me, the cooking instructor if she even could be honorable to own such a title, was sighted, and used to be a science teacher or something. She'd hand me a cassette tape, tell me to follow the instructions and make something. Hell, I could have stayed home, put on sleep shades, or blind folds and do that. Half the time the dorm staff who couldn't read Braille would stick labels on the wrong cans so I'd end up the labels on the wrong cans, that happened to me multiple times, fucking up an entire recipe. Never was taught about food safety at all.
Wood shop: the guy in my case, was awesome, even took me into town to buy ply wood and let me take off the sleep shades, showed me how to run shop equipment, I built my own recording cabinet, and we even played guitar together.
Braille: Yes, never mind the fact I learned braille in preschool, I had an old lady who is probably 6 feet under by now who forced me to read Freedom for the Blind, I.E. the blindness communist manifesto. Couldn't believe it.
Computer class: Here I'll also talk about the guide dog thing. Yes, they did, in fact, tell me if I or anyone in there had a guide dog it had to stay in the dorm room until after 5 pm. Oh but wait, the computer teacher had one and that was ok. Double standards.
Boildown: they're Nazis. I feel sorry for those who are newly blinded and have no life skills or those who've been blind all their lives but were never taught life skills because parental excuse excuse excuse fear fear fear. For those of us who are free thinkers, question things and want to learn like myself, we didn't need to be there in the first place since it was all self directed most of the time anyway. If you could function ok in those classes without being instructed then you didn't need to be there in the first place.
A story: I got tired of sitting in the computer room to use the internet and thought it was fucked up we couldn't have the freedom to use the internet in our room. So I took my wrt 300n router, plugged it into the switch on the desk, told the dorm staff they could lock up the computer room, put the router behind a trash can, walked down to my dorm room, and used a proxy to use the internet as it was supposed to. Want to know the funny part? They restricted access to ACB! They caught the router behind the trash can a week later and hid it on me. Jack asses didn't even take the power cord, they left it hanging there plugged in. The counselor called me in her office, her boss was there and my vr counselor was there and boy they showed me. I told them, you know what, I don't need this crap, I'm leaving and flying to another state to live with a friend. Well, what did Carol the cunt say? Well, she said that's a dream, yes those were her words, it was a, quote, dream. So I walked out a week later and didn't go back. Dream my ass.
So judging by what people have said here, I'd say the consensus is in, the NFB hurts more than it helps.
But the one in Mississippi was not an NFB center. Just sounds like a bunch of teachers who did what post two said some teachers do: take this way of teaching and twist it into something it should not be.
No, it most certainly was an NFB center, they followed structured discovery methodologies, oh yes, no need to question me on that one.
No guide dogs, long white cardboard canes with shitty slippery handles, no fold up canes under any condition, blindfolds, brain washing, the whole 9. One size fits all, hell they had a girl who had perfect vision in the program, go figure that one.
I still say even if someone is in the office with your dog guide, it is still not what your dog guide is designed to do. The difference in having your dog tied down at work is that you are withh it, but at the center, some stranger is with your dog. How do you know that they won't feed it or something? You don't. I agree 100% with Sara: The NFB only knows how to accommodate one disability and one disability only: blindness. They do not know anything about blind people with autism, those in wheelchairs, hearing impairments, and the list goes on. I made a terrible mistake going there, and I should have gone to the Helen Keller center. If I had to do it all over again, I would definitely go to HKNC. Who knows. I still might. One day.
Wouldn't put it past them, Hardyboy. we had one kid, Travis, who wrecked his car drunk driving, he had some brain damage, very rude, burped during dinner, yet there was no variation in his lessons, one size fits all. Again, we had a black girl who had full vision, one eye was slightly less than the other, but they crippled her by forcing her to wear blinders. They didn't make the totals wear them though, so I'll say that at least.
the nfb only has 3 training centers. the center in Virginia follows the same methud, as do a lot of centers, but blind inc, ccb, and lcb are the only three. sorry to burst your bubble, but I have done a lot of fund raising for all three centers, work with the bell programs they have, and attended LCB. ask any member of the NFB that knows about the centers, they only have 3. and at LCB we had to provide our own internet, they didn't tell us what to do with it, none of the staff there had guide dogs, and they let people check in on dogs every couple of hours witch is fine for themn. they are used to staying in cages for days at a time, they feel safe there a lot of them, and they don't mind. it shocks me the crazy amount of miss information given on this board. Please speak on this if you actually know, and if you just want to spread hate, at least spread truthful hate. I wouldn't be the man I am now without the NFB.
BTW Nathan, one of the students in my class at LCB had a large amount of hearing loss and they worked with him.
Just-chilin they made you read Freedom for the blind? *cringe* I tried last year but
couldn't make it through the whole thing.
If the material in question is worth something, it doesn't need a philosophy.
There's no philosophy of computation. We don't have "what it means to be a programmer" classes.
Learn the material you want to teach, and learn it from an accredited institution who is recognized by all, or almost all, in the business community, and go let the social justice furries and their conservative counterpart play int the humanities sandbox.
If what you want to learn is a credible science or technology, there will obviously be variation in the implementation strategies. But dogma is not only unnecessary, it's totally irrelevant, perhaps even harmful, to the discussion.
The square root of 9 is 3 because it can be proven so over and over again. Not because the Candyman says so, or those who follow the Candyman say so. Not because a whole lot of people can "testify" about how terrible they were before they met the Candyman and after he put their mind right, what nice productive citizens they all are now.
Now those of you supporting the NFB, I'd like to hear you defend the way they treat
our canes and justify their most common explanation.
At the rehab center where I went which was full of NFB people, we received this
explanation for the straight cane: Its purpose is to prevent you from folding it up and
hiding your blindness.
I can think of only two reasons someone might say this: They either take me for an
incredibly stupid person or they themselves are stupid. My cane is like a limb. When
people sit cross-legged, are they trying to hide their leggedness? Should they be
forced to sit with their legs in view at all times to prove that they're comfortable
with their bodies? What about crossed arms, hands in pockets, etc? And we haven't
even covered the parts that we're *supposed* to hide.
A sighted friend gave this defense: Most of these people weren't born blind.
So what? I was born with two arms. If I lost one I would be quite upset, but I
wouldn't waste any time trying to hide my prosthesis or any other tools related to
my injury.
My folks did several things right. One was to give me the autonomy to experiment
with many canes for many years. So by the time I arrived at the center, I'd put a lot
of thought and effort into cane selection. I considered the cane to be a part of who I
was, so their insistence that my cane was wrong was a personal insult. Worse was
the fact that they made me carry this strange cane that wasn't mine everywhere,
even in the dorm. The dorm was my temporary home. I generally do not use my
cane in my home. I could hear the walls and the furniture, and I could tell when one
of the newly de-lighted was coming from a block away. TAP, TAP, draaaaaag bump,
unsure hesitation, TAP, TAP, repeat.
I'll say one good thing about their straight canes: I once broke one by thwacking it in
the bushes because I loved the sound it made. A folding cane would come apart
under the force I used.
What this really all boils down to is respect. If they'd instead assumed I was
competent, acknowledged all the thought and work I'd already done and suggested
that I try a longer cane similar to the one I had, then I probably wouldn't be writing
this. I've since gone to a longer cane, so if they hadn't alienated me I might have
benefited from one sooner. In order to get anywhere with me, one must never
dictate and always be prepared to negotiate.
I'm ready for your defenses, and if I hear one that's logical I'll acknowledge it.
Ok, that's easily done. The NFB now offers folding canes. thus they have
clearly moved on from what was a stupid and nonsensical stance. There,
defended.
That doesn't mean the centers have moved on from it. They probably still say no collapsable cane until you graduate.
Have you asked them?
No, but the question is reasonable. The NFB sold telescoping and folding canes when I
was at the center, so the fact that they sell them doesn't indicate that they treat center
residents with respect. If the requirement is gone and the bullshit excuse along with it,
then my point is irrelevant and I'll dismiss it.
Once a Nazi, always a Nazi. End of story.
There may only be 3, giant, well known, name recognizable NFB slave camps, but, whether you believe me or not, the cult doesn't stop at those centers. I told my story and I'm sticking to it.
If it wasn't for liberal lightning saying that we all have bowel movements each day, we might have to ask the sewage treatment plants if they, indeed, find fecies in the sludge they process. He should get up, real close to my royal carnal highway, ask that question and I'll show him, yes, humans and all living creatures do in fact shit.
Have you asked them if they use magic wands? Have you asked them if the sky is blue, they're god, remember?
As if the statements on this thread, all past threads from years and years ago, countless other people that don't come on this site, on and on, never uttered a word of distain.
Nazi? Wow ... harsh.
Maybe you didn't see where I said my center was only "Practicing NFBMethods." I'm sorry, if I didn't make it clear.
We too had some girls with Multiple disabilities. Fact is, I had the dorm director to inform, because this one girl was too open with folks, and I was worried for her getting involved in a sexual relationship. The director said it's her choice. I made it clear she obviously wasn't able of that kind of choice. Something did get done, because, she (The girl), and the man weren't too happy.
One thing I do remember that's good, is learning how to make Apple Pie.
I also hated having to scoot upstairs, when the lift broke. But, that was the fault of the repair company. The dorm director was not very happy with their service.
Best thing they did, was turn toward apartments. Too bad, I missed that.
My intent isn't ruffling feathers, but to share my experiences. One thing I also "Got Busted for," was my bladder problems. Like I decided to have accidents?! That's why I get surgery every five to six months. Like I said, most stuff, I found out.
I'm not saying all was bad, either. I got to water-ski, and it was fun. I hurt afterwords, but didn't care.
Heck! Even the bad stuff, got me hooked with independent programs for the physically disabled. I'm not an ungrateful person.
And, I waited to post, because I didn't think losing my cool, was a good idea.
My state was all NFB, till they kicked the most of us out, in the 80's. Hence, our center was a mock-up of an NFB center... mostly.
I do not approve of the "NFB Method," but I learned to deal. If not for the center, I'd not have had my first apartment. I'm not one of them going to say: "It all sucked rotten eggs, and I hated it..." Parts I actually loved!
I also got my first job raising funds for the library, through the center. And, they busted some backside, so I could work and train for three weeks!
So, as you see, there's good points. I remember coming back from work, dead on my poor toes, ready to just fall in bed, and sleep for a year. But, when I did come back, I felt success inside, because, I was doing a job!
Anyway, I said what I wanted to. You all have a good weekend!
Blessings,
Sarah
I used the term Nazi's because that is the closest thing to how the center I attended operated. You will comply or you will leave. So I left. If that is any indication of how the NFB philosophy at large works, then I want no part of it. One on one training and customized lesson plans. Don't hand me a tape and sit your ass in your office and hope I learn something then act like asking questions defeats the purpose of learning. In the cooking class for example, to demonstrate how unenthusiastic and uninformed the quote, instructor was, when I asked her a question about something, she would respond with, "I don't know, what do you think you should do, Cody?" If I knew dammit I wouldn't be bothering to go out of my way to ask you, now would I? I learned nothing, nothing at all. I wanted to get ideas for recipes, not just be a drone. I wanted to be interactive while I did something, nope couldn't do that either.
Keep in mind a lot of learning is self directed, if you find it within yourself with motivation to take on life by the horns, you will do just that and yes, we all need some help. But as I always tell people it is the learning style and the teaching style which need to coincide with one another for things to work. The NFB completely throws that out the window. All of our staff had one issue or another unrelated to the NFB way of training, but the NFB was at the facility's core.
There wasn't any evaluations to see what skills i did or didn't have, I guess because they couldn't handle too many variations in clients, or, maybe i would have found out I didn't actually need to be there, or, the level of training I sought at the time wasn't something they offered. What the hell do I need to read/dictate out loud the blindness communist manifesto to a 70 something year old lady who's probably heard that book thousands of times for? I learned and excelled far more after I made my exit. I'm not a fast braille reader, maybe around 60 words a minute, but then again, I don't see a reason why I really could benefit from fast braille reading, I take in information better by ear. I'm not by any means saying it's a bad skill to have, but in this day in age, in my opinion, unless you're proofing a document for publishing or programming I don't personally have a use for it, especially since its not as mainstream as text to speech. People are still struggling to make Braille, something invented in the 1800's, a standardized part of technology. Either kill the industry, or bring all of these people together and make a few bad ass braille devices and push them in all stores. Hell, Microsoft actually made narrator slightly more usable, when will I be able to go to staples, or best buy, or walmart, or office max, or whatever, amazon, and buy my choice of 20, 40 or multiline braille display? Why does it have to be reserved for rich people or state agencies, then people say oh isn't it sad, the level of braille literacy among blind people is so low, most of them can't afford braille it's too expensive. Either make it as mainstream as a computer monitor or keyboard or these innovators should stop wasting their time. Honestly. If I could go to Fred Meyer and pick up an Orbit reader 40 or a Tactisplay 40x25 braille display for around 3 to 600 dollars, then that would be great, and I would certainly do so. I just don't buy all these excuses about limited specialty market like you've got to be uber special to even get near a braille display or something. Hell, what happened to embossers, when will they be as common as an inkjet or laser jet? Will it take another 20 30 years for that to happen because there's so much stagnation in the market do to all the money these CEO's are enjoying? That's why you, I, and everyone needs to get into OpenScad, which I'm teaching a blind 13 year old student, and developing and designing your own devices, learn about electronic, Arduino, raspberry Pies, etc and take this market by storm, and those of us who understand such a need, should get together and work with each other to come up with something revolutionary. It's that easy and we need to quit, in my opinion, relying on these agencies to dictate how we should run our lives. Hiding your blindness because you have a folding cane, yes I was told that as well, give me a damn break. Mental illness. Just as bad as those that can't even call a cane a cane, a stick that you wave around. There's a point where it just gets really, really, really old after a while.
So how many of your classmates were rounded up from their homes and brought to that place against their will, or sent to the gas chambers? Since you were obviously deemed fit to live, I hope they taught you nonvisual and (one-sidedly) safe techniques for operating the gas chamber. I'm not surprised you had so much trouble in cooking class with so few resources available. Please share your harrowing survival stories.
Seriously, don't compare them to Nazis. It destroys your credibility.
Ok, perhaps the analogy went too far. Point taken. But what else can one compare them to? One road, no negotiation, and then you had people with differing degrees of vision loss as well as disability....no variation in instruction. Do what they said or leave. It is on par with giving demands/commands.
Wow, LTE had it right in post 30. The amount of ignorance, misinformation, and straight-up exaggeration on this board is astounding. Nazis? Really? People have already set Just Chillin' straight on that, but seriously. There has never been an NFB center in Mississippi. What you were probably dealing with is a center that claimed to base its methods in their philosophy. A lot of non-NfB centers do that. Iowa and Nebraska are two other ones. Not run by the NFB at all, but use some of their teaching tools. I stand by what I said in post 2. Some non-NFB centers do this well, others do it horribly. In the case of the centers not officially run by NFB, I hold their individual directors responsible for how well the teaching is or is not done, not the NFB as a whole. Anything can be misused.
I've never fully understood the not using a folding cane thing. Even in the days when I was more involved in the Federation, I don't get this. Well, I do in theory. The theory goes that many center students are new to blindness, and ashamed that they need a cane at all, so they would hide it if they could. In some cases that's true, but I've still never felt it means all students have to use a straight cane.
In the case of dog guides, the centers are there to teach cane travel, guide dog schools are there to teach dog travel. So, if travel with a dog is what someone needs, then I'd say they need to contact the school they got it from, and request assistance. But if a person can't travel, then the school really never should have given a dog in the first place.
Cody is right, the shades are used because most partial vision is not stable. If someone can use it, naturally they will, so they're making it so the person can't rely on it. That way, if or when that vision does decline after training, the person still knows how to do things non-visually. The thing that gets me here is that, whether a Center is officially run by NFB or not, they don't hide their shade policy. It's not like it's something they keep a classified secret, and then spring it on a person when they show up for training. If you agreed to go to a given center that has a sleepshade policy, don't bitch about the policy you were aware of before you signed up for the program.
Which brings me to my last point. In my mind, the only people that have a right to this level of ignorance and intolerance about the centers are those who were sent their under the age of 18, say for a summer program. They might not have had much of a say in that. Once you're over 18, you choose your own center. You are an adult who can and should ask questions about that Center's policies, program, and training. IF you don't do that, and then get a surprise, that's on you. Plus, you're not a prisoner there. If you find it's not a good fit, a student is free to quit training at any time. No one's forcing them. Quit training at the center where things are not going well, and find a program that better suits your needs. And before anyone tosses the rehab card in my face, that doesn't hold water. I went to CCB, much to my rehab's dislike, but informed choice meant that in the end, they did have to pay for it. Rehab can give you trouble, it's true. Choosing the training program that best fits one's needs may mean they have to push against their state rehab agency a bit. But that gets back to the whole, adult, advocating for oneself thing. You might have to stand up for yourself and advocate, but in the end, you're the client who knows what's best for you, and what is not. No one can force anyone else, (again, with the exception of a minor), to go through a training program.
To retreat just a bit, getting out of the methods and academia bs:
There is one misconception even some NFB people have re: their collapsible canes.
The new design, or at least the one I got late 2013, is comparable to any graduated cylinder threadless pipe-fitting design. I use mine more than I use my straight.
Does it tend to collapse? Yes it can, but place the tip between your toes and just pull hard like setting a hook in a fish and it's all good. Rarely collapses.
I don't think much of what passes for a manual of theirs online, lots of politics and propagands, Care and Feeding of a White Cane I think it's called. Rather strange but anyhow. They recommend not to drag these on the ground. That makes sense, the tip will catch and cause things to collapse.
Why so much puff and propaganda to explain what is just a hardware issue, beats the jiggety fuck out of me. I'm kind of an intermittent dragger anyhow, mainly dragging if the ambiance doesn't give me better feedback.
So for me the collapsible ones work.
I know lots of people hate on the NFB canes. I have a foldable aluminum ass-beater somewhere that I would use outside. But in the city, the NFB ones work. And yes, collapsible I can stick it in my pocket.
Even if you've been at the bar all night, or burning some leaf and playing music, you know exactly where your collapsible is at, and it's not hurting anybody.
I wasn't entirely correct. They aren't Nazi's, they're not-sees.
I don't see any mor meaningful dialog in this post anymore. if anyone actually wants to know about centers, or the NFB outside of what the haters are saying, feel free to private message me. Done with the retards here.
I will say, I jumped for joy, when we got a new director. And the best thing our center did, was make it so we don't feel forced to go. At the time I went, I was without a place to live. Now, they changed it, so you need a place, and can't say someone said you had to go.
There's a lot of progress, and I feel that my advocating for myself at the center, had much to do with it. Our center just had adopted NFB's ways. With things changing, the center has changed.
Maybe, sounds like we are the only center with a happy ending?
Anyway, I'll give myself some credit, and others credit, as well. Frankly, I wish I had a better time there, so I wasn't so frustrated with it. And, not all the stress, was the center. I'm proud of myself, for dealing with a lousy hand of cards, at the time. I won't go into details, but you wanna know, send me a pqn.
Blessings In Christ,
Sarah
Wooo! Had to log in on my computer to do this post... Take from it whatever you want...
So as many on this site know or maybe not know, I am currently at LCB. It was NOT an easy decision to make, but I realized that I needed help with travel, and turns out, I need a lot of technology help as well. Then, a lot of you know that I used to hate the NFB. In fact, I went to a center at home to avoid this center, but 3 years later...
Now, I understand that structured discovery isn't for every body, but this craziness that just chillin and others are posting, I'm not seeing it. If you say that not babysitting you all the time is like a nazi camp, then? lol
If you guys look at all the stuff that the NFB is doing for guide dogs owners, then you would calm doooown!!! Jeez.
And, it is not manditory that Center students attend the meetings once a month, but I do it because I see where the Federation could benefit me. As of today, I was allowed to go to a lecture that would help with my current career path. To top that off, I am being connected with someone who's blind, and who can help me.
Finally, what was the point in this post? Are we arguing over philosophy or??? lol
Oh, and like Chris, if any of you want to know anymore about how things are done here at the Center, feel free to message me or something. I'm around some during the day as well.
One more thing, I have heard of several other people who have hated the Federation because of crazy people twisting the philosophy, but making you figure stuff out without any instruction is absolutely not how things are done. Do you guys seriously think that your instructors would make you cross an interstate or use power tools that could rip your fingers off without any explanasion first? Hell to the no.
So once again, chill people. Goddamn.
Thank you lakeria
this is an interesting thread. guide dogs for the blind is the school where I rtrained and received myi sara and now my pima. mobility wwas ra prerequisite. before I got sara, they had an interview and I had to do an extensive route. maybe other schools are different?
a lot of schools are lax on mobility requirements because they have to turn out a specific number of dogs to keep funding. Leater, pilot, I'm looking at you
not to say they make bad dogs because they don't, but I have sene people who can't use a cane to walk down an empty hallway get dogs from those schools.
Just-chillin, I'm curious about one thing. Would you consider off brand coke and Coca-Cola to be *exactly* the same thing? Do they taste the same/look the same/get packaged in exactly the same way? Or, are their miner major to miner differences in Coca-Cola as compared to every off brand version? Sure, they're all soft drinks, but there is a reason Coca-Cola goes out of its way to promote what makes it different than its competitors. Some of that difference was built by the brand. The real thing has mental associations the off brand doesn't... But when you get down to it, No off brand is produced exactly the same way Coca-Cola is.
You probably saw where I was going with this but... the NFB goes out of its way to say that only 3 centers are officially sanctioned by the NFB, just as Coca-Cola only puts its logo on a few select products. A lot of other soft drinks are sold as coke, but they're not the real thing. Based off your experience, you're free to say that you don't like soft drinks, particularly those that taste like Coca-Cola. You're even free to advise people don't drink coke because of the health risks you experienced... But if you're being honest, you can't say you've actually tried Coca-Cola, or the NFB training version of it.
Don't shoot your argument in the foot, by attempting to pass off logical fallacy as fact. It undermines everything else you communicate on the subject.
Don't tell me you're a free thinker, and then ignore facts you'd rather not agree with, because that's not something free thinkers do.
Again, I'll simply state my experience driven by what was touted as NFB style teaching.
Re soft drinks: I'm laughing as I read that as yeah, generic colas and coke do, in fact, to me anyway, taste the same. That is, with the exception of pepsi which tastes slightly sweeter, and used to prefer it over coke.
And yes, the health risks of soft drinks like soda are, very real. Are you going to say that soda is the healthiest thing you can select to drink?
Nope, I even think its a very valid reason as to why someone shouldn't drink it.
Just as I think there are very valid reasons center training isn't the best option for all individuals. It wasn't the best example I could think of, but it worked to make the point.
But, hmm...
we can try it this way, if you'd like.
Installing a 3rd party rom on an android device isn't the same thing as installing/using official android.
It may be based off android in many ways... But the differences can create a vastly different product. Its an android "style" operating system. It is not official android.
Even devices that have been skinned by companies like samsung are not 100 percent authentic android. A samsung phone won't work exactly the same way that an LG phone works. It may or may not have all the same features, even if it shares some.
So, to be clear, You are talking about what is more or less a fork of NFB teaching philosophy. Its "what was touted as NFB style teaching." As you stated in your last post. It was not, however, official NFB teaching.
Even when the NFB talks about programs that have adopted structured discovery, they make it clear that the NFB only sanctions 3 official centers.
I more or less see how this is going to continue to go down. You make a straw man out of my argument, knock it down, and then we go nowhere.
So, if that's what I'm in store for, I probably won't bother in future. Its not going to be productive.
A better comparison. I understood both examples just fine, just so you are aware.
Android perhaps was less of a good example since the consistency on its own, through my testing months at a time, is not suitable, in my opinion, for the average blind consumer. We won't go into these reasons. These flaws, however uncontrolled or controlled they might be, provide a bad face that could be shaped up more suitably if there was slightly more oversight with compatibility. This leads, as many can comment on, a sizable number of us who, quote, give android accessibility a bad name. Or, are, quote, naysayers. There's a reason these, quote, naysayers say what we say. Without going into examples which aren't necessary for this post nor this topic, if there weren't issues, no one would go out of their way to say anything, now would they? As with the NFB, in my view, it is too strict at its core, and any forks of such a philosophy will be, whether intentional or not, bastardized. The question then becomes, what, fundamentally, causes such forks of this philosophy to be twisted? Is it because the philosophy at its core, in its raw and founded state, is just that, strict and decisive towards their clients?
I'll post it this way. What issues do NFB junkies have against the tradition learning styles of some training centers such as ACB ones. Now I'm not sure if ACB takes responsibility for such titled training methods, but that is what I've heard. In this training system, and I have experience at both types of centers, choice and one on one training is provided, with questions being asked and instructors interacting with the clients, rather than giving them a tape and saying, listen to this and follow instructions, or a braille book plopped down in front of me and being told, "read aloud, please" No intake, no preior skills taken into consideration, reinventing the wheel. The state's money hard at work doing asbolutely nothing in such an NFB system.
So tell me, at these 3 certified NFB centers, is there one on one training? Do they do intake and personalize each student or client's learning experience based in whether or not they are newly blinded or have been blind since birth but want to learn some new ideas or do they not? Is it a custom experience, or a one size fits all.
And to be even more clear, training centers can be useful if what I posted at the end of my previous post is taken into consideration. Because sooner or later, those who are newly blinded may surely learn of other ideologies and realize how restricted they were in the first place causing this kind of resistance. I myself was unaware of such differences int raining styles until this, so I, again, speak from experience. It is also my view that it does more harm than good. So I do agree training centers may not be a good solution for all, but they can, certainly, be more fitting for more as well than they, perhaps, currently are.
I'm glad LCB helps people with hearing impairments.
The other two centers have had clients who are hearing impaired graduate, so it can be done. Perhaps it depends on the severity of the hearing impairment.
Yup. I'm one of them. Biggest difficulty was travel of course.
and the willingness for someone to learn a different way and listen to what people are telling them to do.
I got to talking with a fellow student, and we both agreed that sometimes, we have to do what works best for us, even if it doesn't "Conform to the right way..."
So, I just do what works for me. I have determination, and do try for independence. However, independence is a bit different for some people. Sure, I know and accept there's things I just can't do. However, sometimes, acceptance, is better than putting yourself down, because, it's difficult, and frustrating.
People enjoyed putting me down, my whole life. Time for me to accept who I am, and have a better attitude, and not believe I'm this horrid person.
Really, it does help, when you get there. I got tired of being thought of as a loser, so I refuse to think of myself that way.
Blessings In Christ,
Sarah
I've always wondered, 'How would I do things differently, yet still get shit done that needs doing if I'm ever in a situation that requires use of a chair, crutches, or any other mobility tools or medical devices in addition to the cane or dog?" I'm generally a pretty adaptable, resilient person, but accepting help from others can be so difficult, particularly if one is taught not to accept help freely offered. I realize there are times, as with chronic illness that can rob people of independence due to worsening conditions, when it is necessary to accept help from others. Personal matters like bathing and changing clothes ... Not sure how I'd cope with that, but if the person assisting me if I ever ended up in that kind of life-altering circumstance was professional about it, or seemed okay with helping me in such an intimate and personal way, then I'd be okay with accepting their help. I can usually tell when people are uncomfortable around me, so I react accordingly. Ideally, if I was in such a situation, I'd want as many familiar people helping me tend to my needs where extra hands are needed as possible. No impatient, condescending, easily-frustrated strangers.
I accept help when I need it. I'm not the most independent with everything, but I can still live life. I think that's great.
I wonder how many things aren't done by people who simply accept that they
can't do them as being a given. Hell, I can't count how many times I've thought
that there was something a blind person couldn't do, only to meet a blind
person who does that thing on a regular basis without thinking its challenging at
all. So maybe we need to stop thinking we're the only ones who can think of
solutions for us? maybe listening to other people might show of ways of doing
things we didn't think we could do, just a thought.
As far as teachers with the NFB philosophy goes I'd say it all has to do with how you feel about said philosophy. Also, ask yourself if the philosophy is taken with a grain of salt or taken to heart as law. The NFB have both factions.
What bothers me, is why can't they accept some people have other physical problems! What's the big issue with having to gripe to the director, just to be permitted to use a stool? Why did it take "Notes from my doctor," of all things, to get accommodated, for long-distance travel issues? Why, when they see I'm needing a walker, is it so hard? Like I said, mine wasn't an NFB center. Just they followed those methods. Now I can't even get rehab to train me on Windows. No. I am going to have to be like the blind Christians of the Bible times, and ask strangers for money, so I can pay someone to train me. Because I have a learning disability they wouldn't work with, I have to beg for help. It's humiliating! I will not deny it. But, that's what I will have to do. Because, I need 1-on-1 training to understand Windows.
Some that defend this training method, don't need that extra help. I even applied for Developmental Disability support. The only reason I don't get it, is because, my disease was "Diagnosed too late."
This, is why I do not trust our government. They let me fall through the cracks, and my rehab for this state watched me fall, while saying: "We can't help you anymore. You don't qualify for Supported Employment."
Not even a "Have a nice day," while I'm being let to fall.
That's why I believe God will help. Nobody else has even tried. I can't accept there's no hope, and that I'm destined to sit in my chair collecting SSI, that isn't guaranteed, while government services wash their hands of the "Unemployable Individual."
I can prove that I did apply.
Sarah
I think some things about it need to be changed. but is it a bad way to learn? not in the slightest. its not for people who like to play the blind card a lot to get out of doing things, its not for those who don't believe that they can learn skills for themselves, its not for those who like to be spoon fed, and that is why a lot of people don't like it
sarah, you say they used the NFB way of training, I have not heard one thing that reminds me of training I got at LCB. they can say they do, but doing it is different. Don't believe everything you hear.
Ok, just one question here. Why, if none of what has been mentioned on this board against such an nfb philosophy is not true, has the official nfb lords not released a statement clearing up the lines in the sand to at least cover their ass, because, man, just having these discussions time and time again doesn't look good for them at all. And about the being spoon fed thing. I am extremely independent, generally have no ties to any blindness organization so this is not true. The nfb is militant. End of story. Individuality, not group think.
Sarah, you feel you face persecution? Hell, if you were closer I'd teach you windows. Now the NFB isn't all bad folks. Yes they have nuts in the ranks but who doesn't?
Right, cuz you're the bastion of individuality. To answer your question though,
not that I think you'll be able to understand the extreme amount of complexity
required to follow this twisted thread of logic, they probably don't release that
because they already have. Its all over their websites, and if you still have a
question, you can call them and ask them, just like I did. If you're not willing to
actually inform yourself, why should any of us give to rusted shits about your
opinion? Oh, but I forgot, you attended a mysterious, seemingly nonexistent
NFB program in a state in which there are no NFB training centers, and did it an
untold amount of years ago. Your expertise on the subject is unquestionable, of
course.
I am a free thinker. I ddo what I want, I go to the events I want, I believe what I want, but I have been a member for 13 years. explain that one.
never mind, its pointless whenm someone puts up a post stating that they believe something and they won't be changed. no need arguing with him any further. he will believe what ever he wants and not open his mind up to anything else. sounds like he has the issue with free thinking here, not us.
What the hell is 73 even on about. Now I'm a lire? Haha. Alright, whatever. I can only tell you what they instilled in us. I didn't even know such a philosophy even existed, why would I go out of my way to even comment on something if it wasn't shoved in mine and others faces? Looks like NFB needs to hand out licenses. Oh and was just speaking with a coworker haha, you should have heard her rail the NFB about 20 mins ago. Hell I wasn't even the one bringing up the subject and she's not even blind, she's a TVI. Anyway we both had a nice solid hardy laugh. It's all good. Go about your day.
case and point
The point is she has years of experience with organizations and training methods and students, hundreds of students over the years, yeah, I'm sure she knows what she's talking about. The point is the complaints are real, and there will always be die hard nfb supporters no matter what, but it doesn't mean there's some really bad tactics they use. If you like to be told what to do, where to do it, how to do it as a good blind person, use your long paper cane so you don't hide your blindness so everyone knows, hey, knock yourself out.
I'd be put in a reeducation camp faster than a flash of lightning if an NFB commander new I had a 5 section folding cane with a roller ball tip, blue stripe and a nice wooden handle. Oh they'd have a stroke. Bring it on!
Graphite, of course.
God, if you're that desperate to be persecuted, join the christian church. At
least they're funny when they claim persecution every christmas. You're just
pathetic, and not even intelligently so.
Definitely an outsider here, but JustChillin has done the stubborn "I'm not moving" defense before, in the thread about trying to audit FS...so I'm not surprised.
If I was in a different position I might have considered going to CCB or something, though as a total I definitely would have had an issue with being asked to wear sleep shades for no good reason. Ditto their straight canes. I've been blind all my life and even if I wanted to hide it, I'm not going to. I've always thought that whole angle of NFB philosophy was shaky; take each individual on their own merits regarding which cane they use and all that.
In any case, I suppose I don't have a whole ton to add, save that this thread made me bust up laughing two or three separate times.
Well, I was correct in my prediction. JC transformed my argument into a straw man he could easily knock down rather than actually addressing what I said, in any meaningful way.
I am a little amused though that he goes on and on about being a free thinker, thinks that Cody and many others aren't capable of changing their minds, but posted the following earlier quote.
Taken from post 38.
"the cult doesn't stop at those centers. I told my story and I'm sticking to it."
The facts clearly tell a different story but I guess in his world, being a free thinker means something rather different than the commonly understood definition.
So much Cognitive dissonance on display.
Honestly, the instructors at the center answered a lot of my questions/gave me a lot of alternative suggestions for completing tasks. For many of them, the philosophy was a guideline. It was not the end all, be all. Even though the program was taught in a particular way, it does end up getting adapted to various students needs.
Some students had physical or cognitive issues that prevented them from completing the program, but adaptations were made after evaluation.
Additionally, students have semimonthly meetings with their instructors/the director of the center to talk about program progress, future goals, plans and any possible modifications/changes to your program.
A lot of people who struggled at the center were the kinds of people who either refused to put in the work, cultivated bad relationships with staff, or actively prevented other students from learning.
As others have stated, they don't keep any secrets about program expectations, goals or conduct from applicants. They tell you from the start that choosing a center is not the best choice for everyone, and that is OK.
Do I agree with everything I learned there, no. Do they expect I will use every single thing I learned there, no. they encourage healthy disagreement and asking questions about what you are learning, and why. Well, the good teachers did, anyway. Structured discovery doesn't work when students aren't thinking critically.
I don't think its a perfect system.
How ever, calling it a completely inflexible and heartless system is a bit of a misrepresentation.
If people had actually bothered to do do research, they'd know these facts.
Greg, I specifically asked if totals were required to wear sleep shades when I
was talking with the director of CCb on thursday of this past week. The answer
was no. If you have vision, then yes, but totals, no.
same in Minnesota. they do not expect the totally blind incoming students to wear sleep shades.
Yeah. You'd clarified that, which is good. If they required us to still wear shades, that's just a matter of upholding a reason for its own sake, which really isn't good enough.
Wish they would just call them what they are. Blindfolds.
They aren't though. They are sleep shades.
Seeing people use them to sleep in places where the sun doesn't go down at specific times of the year.
They use them to sleep during daylight when they can't make the room, or place they are sleeping dark enough.
A blindfold is normally a folded cloth tied around the eyes.
Sleep shades are like glasses.
Lol, ok. Now we're just splitting cunt hairs. Sleep shades, the politically correct way of saying blind folds. They serve the same purpose, do they not?
Yes, and no, but that's a different subject.
Smile.
A sleep shade looks a worlds better then a blindfold if you are wondering down a public street.
People have enough odd ideas about blind folks, and wearing a legit blindfold, well.
Laughing.
Wearing either of them at all would draw questions to whether they're blind in the first place or just staff being trained within a week quick to claim they can teach blind folks. You stick out like a sore thumb and then when an actual blind person is in public not wearing them they get asked, "don't you wear blinders?" all sorts of artificial means to condition/train blind people using this philosophy only confuses the public persona even more than it is about blindness. Now it is true that the occasional mobility lesson using blind folds can help assist in honing in auditory skills. True, I can get behind that, but not as a blanket solution.
Sleep shades, please. Sleep shades.
Laughing.
Okay.
All sleep shades are blindfolds, in that they cover the eyes and block vision.
But not all blindfolds are sleep shades.
Sleep shades are made specifically to block light so that people can sleep in higher-than-ideal lighting conditions, as Wayne said. The fact that they're being used as a blindfold here isn't a bad thing.
I'm not entirely sure I agree with the philosophy, but I get it, at least.
Just chillin, I'm probably gonna get stared at for waving a stick around or being walked by a dog in harness. If I am also going to have to wear sleep shades, I really don't see that as a big deal. If people are curious, they can ask; and as for the few people who are going to see it and think the blind are really weird? Fuck it. It doesn't matter.
Seriously. At this point you will take anything and everything as ammo to fuel your stance, whether it actually makes sense or not. I'm not even an NFB person and I feel like you're really, really grasping at straws. The language you use damages your credibility.
On a side note...okay, as I said before, I get but am not sure if I fully agree with NFB philosophy about sleep shades.
They say it's so that you learn the auditory way of doing things, as if somehow hearing will be exempt from degradation. Really, each person is individual in this regard; some low-vision people can expect that their vision won't get markedly worse, while others will lose bits constantly.
For the people at high risk of losing much of all of what they have, then yes, get them to use sleep shades, force them to hone techniques they can use once that vision fails them. It'll be scary and uncomfortable, but it makes sense.
But as for low-vision folks who have a relatively stable level of eyesight? Friggin' let 'em use it! I don't see a problem with that.
At the NFB center I attended, and yes, I'm going to call it that because, what else can I call it but what they claimed to be, all attendees wore sleep shades. That meant quite simply, even the girl who had 2020 vision in one eye and very slightly less in the other, wore them too. They did, however, let the totally blind girl not wear them, I suppose because it would defy logic if they did. But yeah the blind stigma needs to be addressed. Hell, if someone can put ads on the radio about non 24, why not have a group of legit blind individuals get together and do some PSA's promoting NVDA or alternative assistive tech solutions, since, large companies like FS refuse to sell theirs in stores. I know I know, you'll say I'm grasping at straws and it will do no good, and how dare I undermine jaws and the rest of it. The blind stigma will always exist and by creating a visual stimuli by having sighted people see us wear sleep shades/blinders/blind folds just adds fuel to the fire. So how do you solve the problem? Simple. Education. Organizations are compartmentalized, so that's why I suggest PSA's, or banding together and developing products that are inexpensive, shit like that. But while I try to think of innovative ideas, the rest of you tell me I'm wimpering, or I'm grasping at straws, or this or any number of reason why you can't or won't stand up with me and actually be outspoken. Well easy, you'll just say I discredit myself. Hmm, that's funny, I'm doing fairly well in reality with the people that know and trust me, and they're sighted. I guess because I didn't grow up around blind people, only had a few friends here and there but for the most part online, I don't understand this hive blind mind mentality. I don't attend blindness organization conventions, and frankly I really don't have any desire to. I have access to information right here at my desk, online, browsing podcasts and news to keep tabs on what new technology is up and coming. Until new innovations make an appearance on the mass market, it does me or anyone else no good. Bitching about these small issues with training difference just takes our attention away from the real issue, which is dealing with the other 95% of people who can't even deal with us as a blind demographic like anyone else, because we're too busy in reeducation camps learning how and what cane to use. I mean, this website, and many other segments of the online blind community, nearly everyone knows each other. With hours long ventrilo or skype calls and nearly the same people on this site logged in for days at a time then you read their profile and they stick their chest out like their something special, but I know it's all for show. Why? I've been there. But then i grew up and realized if I don't start living in the real world, I'm going to be a sad, miserable person for the rest of my life. But of course, no one on this thread or this site will, or is even open to seeing this very issue. I know only a few blind folks that are open to this. I know of some smart folks who are blind, yet they stay in the dark as they can't be bothered with this type of drama. Then there's the rest of you, who seemingly know each other by name, for what reason I don't know, maybe you all as a collective go to the nfb conventions and have orgies. Who the hell really knows.
And see, your words are doing a really good job of damaging whatever credibility you had.
Just a few points:
1. I have met exactly three zoners in person, I believe. Maybe four, but one was a very, very quick thing. I've spoken to several on skype, it's true, but I've never been to an NFB convention, and so I openly sneer at your commentary about the blind hive-mind. I disagree with you because I am an opinionated, free-thinking and (dare I declare it) a reasonably intelligent blind man who's seen enough of the world to know what makes sense and what doesn't.
2. See, your comment about spreading the word on NVDA is precisely the sort of thing we -do need, which is where I'm glad you've seen sense, because it's what I've been advising you put your effort into, rather than an attempt at auditing FS. So when I'm talking about shooting yourself in the foot and damaging your credibility, it's more because you're making blanket statements about a group rather than addressing individual arguments. If you're shortsighted enough to dismiss me because I disagree with you, and you want to make believe that it's because we're all in some mass mind together and simply resistant to change, if you want to further your obvious contempt with the language you use, then of course no one is going to take you seriously. here's a hint. Want to get through to people? Make them listen; don't slap them in a box and insult them.
3. Please don't accuse people of not being open to see what you're presenting when you yourself are becoming infamous for an "I'm not bending" mentality of your own. It's hypocritical, and does a pretty good job of undermining what remains of your credibility. This is especially true because as of yet, and looking at this from a relatively outside perspective, I have yet to see anyone else in this thread, in particular, being totally closed to changing their mind on something. I've seen people fairly certain they're in the right, but that's int. You're the one who's declaring himself closed to a change of perspective, not us, so don't project your failings on the rest of us. It makes you look like the very sort of blind person you're so openly sneering at.
I ask only one question. Why should I be the only one taking the lead here only to be called out for it later. Why can't a sizeable number of us get together and create a foundation or network that bolsters alternative solutions. Why do I have to be the one to carry out these ideas which ultimately will benefit you? Why am I the only one who even comes up with these ideas? The answer is pretty simple, it is because I care, believe it or not. It saddens me to see I don't have as much support behind these ideas as I should have. I know for a fact I'm not crazy. Sighted seniors in high school design prototypes for 3d printed braille displays. To my knowledge I'm the only one who teaches 3d design using Open Scad to yet another blind middleschooler. Why! Does anyone not feel it's important, like, oh well, we're all being conditioned, taught and screwed and so what are you going to do about it? It's just the way it is, blame capitalism, yup, it's perfectly fine to be screwed over, specialized market. What, so we can't raise holy hell over it? Is it really so bad? On the other hand, do I need to spread the word to help other people who may or probably may not appreciate it. Even if you aren't a programmer, or scripter, which I'm not, you can do the leg work of promoting new ideas and killing old ones.
See, you're putting words in people's mouths again. You are suggesting that because people aren't doing precisely what you're doing, they're okay with capitalism, when in fact they may be just as upset about gouging as you are.
You need not be the only one who's taking steps in the right direction. I'm in agreement with you there. But there is more onus on you, at the moment at least, because you're the one making the claims, you're the one making outlandish statements. As such, we're not telling you that we're inactive, or going to become inactive, we're simply suggesting ways that you could do better. Huge, huge difference. The fact that I have to spell this out for you saddens me, and really drives home the fact that your stubborn viewpoints have really alienated some of the community here.
There's an even simpler option than Gregg's choice, though his is perfectly
valid. It could easily be that we simly think your ideas are bad ideas. I do.
just chillin, your fucking stupid. you can't go around sayin gblind people need to do this and not this, if it works for them. If the center you went to was not LCB, CCB, or blind inc, than its not an NFB center, no matter what teaching methuds they use, so there is one point tossed out of the window. I am again, a 13 year NFB member and I believe parts of the NFB bible that I choose to, and ignore the ones I don't like. another one of your points thrown out of the window. do I need to continue to disprove everything your saying? or have you cawt on yet.
You are far from the only one taking the lead here. The main developers of NVDA are blind. And that's just one example of many. I could list several in the blindness software/hardware spaces. Most of the people who have changed laws about blindness, or are currently working to change laws about blindness are blind. Come on, man. before you make a claim do a little research. I don't know if you were intending to come across as a martyr here, but that's the vibe I'm getting. Combine that with you clearly refusing to consider the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you, while accusing everyone else of living in a hive mind... Well, its not exactly helping your case.
I was referring to folks other than those developing for NVDA. More talking about end users. The devs are great people making real change.
As an aside, we probably shouldn't be worried about creating new legislation and worry more about implementing those that already exist, 508? I see many companies, the ones I can think of at the moment are all in the UK for some reason, that aim to evaluate accessibility on websites and such. This in and of itself is pretty important. Let's crack down on those issues. Folks will ask why and then it can be explained that people who are blind need correctly implemented websites and software etc. The tools are there, but often do no good.
Yes, I'd definitely agree that this is important.
One thing that really, really needs dispelling is the myth that accessibility is expensive and time-consuming. It really, really isn't.
I suppose this has started to wander pretty far afield from the original topic though.
Just chillin, you may want to relax your stance a bit, try to open up your mind to what others are saying.
Hi, Chris. Do you happen to know what techniques were taught to the person with a pretty bad hearing impairment? I mean, that is what ultimately screws up my travel. Apart from crossing cards, which anyone can make, I wonder what other adaptive skills are around? Personally, one I use when cooking is to take a meat thermometer, stick it in water, and listen until I hear 212 degrees farenheight. Then, I know the water is boiling. Also, there are other methods like feeling the handle for vibrations and getting one of those discs-- none of which worked for me. You know, as I reflect on the NFB some more, every organization, and this is not just blindness ones, has policies that people enjoy, while others do not. I can tell you one thing though. What other organization, other than the NFB, is seriously advancing life for the blind? I challenge any of you to come up with an answer. No other organization does it better than the NFB. The more I think of it, the more I'd like to get involved. You can be a member and not use every technique suggested by the NFB. If more hearing impaired persons are involved, we can help educate the NFB. As people age, there hearing will deteriorate. I think the NFB provides great networking opportunities, and I for one, am tired of sitting on the sidelines. Chris, I'd be greatful for any info you have on membership and the like. I'm almost done with college, and then could start attending some meetings.
Nathan, I would be happy to share with you. hit me up on facebook chat when you get the chance, or if you still have my number, it has never changed.
Hmm, I wonder if an old fashioned kettle would help you with boiling water.
They whistle pretty damn shrilly. I suppose it would depend on the type of
hearing impairment. Just a thought though. You could also get an electric kettle
that shuts off at a specific degree. Mine have a switch that flips over when it
reaches the boiling point.
I'm pretty much neutral on the subject of the NFB as I live in Canada. We have the CFB here which adopts many of their philosophies mind you. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about utilizing sleep shades with partial vision. I can see both sides (surprise surprise). We shouldn't be held back from utilizing every tool we have. That happened to me in highschool: someone expected me to use braille and tactile for everything regardless of my vision. it was frustrating. On the other hand, having the confidence to do things without looking at all is pretty awesome. I think I'd be willing to try sleep shades just to develop alternatives, but I wouldn't wish it to be forced on me.
I think it comes down to your vision. If you're expected to lose it gradually, then I think forcing you to learn nonvisual methods is key, because it means you've got stuff you can use until or unless your hearing starts to deteriorate, which is something they frankly can't account for in most cases. If your low vision is relatively stable, then hell yeah. I say use it if you've got it. I've had this argument with a few people though, and I've had mixed results.
I think about it like this, the base level for vision is no vision. If you strip
everyone down to that base level, and train them from there, then vision
becomes a tool, not a requirement. If you depend upon your vision to navigate,
its a requirement, not a tool. The NFB wants to make it so what vision you do
have is a tool, not a requirement. That way, if something does happen, or if
you're just out at night, you're not stripped of your requirement, you're only
stripped of one tool. It also probably makes it easier to teach people if everyone
is on the same level. Kind of makes artificial equality in a way.
But who are you to make that determination for someone? Are you a doctor?
who are you to tell people what they think, believe, and practice is wrong? are you god?
That's part of why they do it.
Another reason is this.
Many low vision people they've worked with over the years tend to overuse the limited vision they have, in ways that tend not to be very safe, or effective.
So many people with partial vision have been turned away from any alternative ways of getting things accomplished, that they have no way of being able to effectively compare them, as they haven't ever actually tried.
Worrying about not looking blind isn't logical, compared to being able to work as safely and Efficiently as possible.
Well I'll say this. If anyone one of you die hard nfb people saw the way I cooked, not that it's bad, but seems like any little thing would tick you off, I'd get nothing but criticism for hours. Do I edge pans and move food around in hot pans with my bare hands? Sure do. Do I cook and do dishes with rubber gloves on? Nope sure don't. You know, just to name a few. Haha, yep, I'm not making that up either, the nfb center had us not only wear blinders, but wear rubber gloves too while cooking so we couldn't have our full sense of feeling what we're doing. And yeah yeah, I know I've heard the whole well you might go blind in 3 days so you have to be totally crippled now so you can be ready for it. But I'll say again, being forced to do something that way might work for some people who are newly blinded, or have lost some sight but can still see something or have light perception, but for us, or at least myself because apparently that's all I speak for, that doesn't work. You think that someone who's been blind all their life and I'm not talking about low vision or the almost blind but not really people, haven't adapted already? Of course I'm going to adapt. I'll say it again, they aren't my doctor, and in many cases, or at least my specific case, not even registered TVI's. I know the real NFB centers are different and so much better yada yada yada. There are factors to consider. One, is that people do things as a result of conscious decisions they make, and two, is that they do something or don't do something as a result of fear that they can't because they can't see what they're doing. Newly blinded folks are more prone to this as they dont have experience living without sight, and adding blinders just contributes more to that fear.
Why the hell do you move food around in a hot pan with your bare hands? Are
you a monkey that can't use a fucking spatula? And wearing gloves while doing
dishes is called good sanitary practices. You should wear gloves as often as
possible when doing anything in the kitchen. Much less cross contamination that
way.
What irritated the shit out of me is that at the nfb center, the lady sent me out on a final route, and gave me a tape recorder with the addresses on it. Well of course I'd just take off the blinders. But what the irritating parts was that the instructor would go out with other students in the area where she knew the other students she sent out on final routes would be and spied on them making sure they were wearing the blind folds. By the way I've got great mobility skills without wearing those damn things. there is a world of difference between low vision and blind, if you weren't already aware. Low vision people don't drive to begin with but still in many cases have enough sight to ride a bike without hitting something or crossing a street. It is important to make this distinction. Of course I road a bike as well when I was a kid but I never left my neighborhood and always looked at the ground as the distinction between green and gray pavement was the most obvious thing to keep in my view. Hoever this wasn't the most idea situation to use a bike for long distince travel, which I never did.
Of course he had to quick say something after I did, figures. Go back to history class there buddy.
well... I see more differences in your not an actual nfb center and the actual nfb centers.
If these things were really a cult as you claim than they'd be teaching the real nfb way, wouldn't they? lol
So wait, you were pissed off by someone making sure you followed the rules?
You realize how petulant that sounds, don't you? He asks already knowing you
absolutely do not.
Either way, I call it a cult since they never actually gave logical reasons that I could recall for why they implemented the strategies they did. Only that everything was preventative, but that never really answered any of my questions. As i said before, I had no clue there was even a difference in training center methods. I never saw a reason why one on one training wouldn't be a part of it, but sure enough, it wasn't.
Incidentally, I don't use rubber gloves when I wash dishes. I use rather hot water and my bare hands. That's how just about everyone I've ever known, blind or sighted, has done it. It lets me have direct contact with dishes so I know when they're fully clean. Wearing rubber gloves, that becomes at least a little more difficult. And I daresay that my parents, my brother and I washing dishes by hand, without gloves, never hurt anyone in the eighteen or so years I lived at home with my entire family, and it's probably been that way since time out of mind for most people.
I don't see a reason why you should be forced to use rubber gloves while washing dishes...but JustChillin, I do kind of wonder why you would use your hands to move food around in a pan while it's cooking. Forks, spatulas, even spoons are good for this.
haha, well, I don't just use my bare hands entirely yes I do use utensils and the like but flipping pork roll or things that need to be flipped that need stabilizing as you flip it to ensure it is flipped all the way. I use my hand to align the pan on the burner repeatedly as I manipulate the pan even while hot. no way to cook but to get in there and check. and yeah, I've burned myself occasionally, but hell, I'm used to pouring coffee into a cup that was boiled in an electric tea pot and then put into a french press, which is incidentally how I like to make coffee using my finger to place over the edge of the cup. I don't use those beepers to hang inside cups, as I like my java to the brim, if you feel me.
Yes, 1 on 1 training was a part of *official center* training.
Wow that's.... really dumb. But who knows, maybe the guy likes burning his fingers.
Wow, you mean chillin' didn't know what he was talking about and gave
factually inaccurate information? I'm just ever so shocked.
hello,
since I'm pretty uninformed about this topic, I need a question answered. please be indulgent.
this concerns guide dogs. In some cases, putting our partner in n office might be necessary for a time. for example, a dog in a home ec kitchen might be frustrating for some.
although I don't understand the reasoning, I'd like to know what it is. probably the teacher wants the student to work on travel skills. if the individual received and uses the dog correctly and successfully,then it would be assumed, a dangerous word, that these were present. when I received my first guide, the representative from G.D.B. put me and my cane through a pretty rigorous route. My abilities were evaluated. a friend went to a different school, and she had to submit a video which had to cover certain key issues. it too was studied. both of us passed. so, if this is the case, why does the student have to learn cane skills? obviously these served well or the guide dog wouldn't be present. it seems to me like this is putting the chicken before the egg.
please don't think I'm trying to cause conflict. thisis just something that fascinates me and I want to learn. thanks and enjoy your day.
I'd say from reading lots of these boards, people with guide dogs really haven't learned to travel at all. I had to prove myself too, but I've learned that many users do not.
The NFB would know this.
I couldn't imagin washing dishes with gloves on. Seems your hands in soapy water would be just as clean as gloves, and you'd really feel if your stuff was clean.
I don't suspect you all take everything they teach home, right? I suspect you adapt to some degree, or personal habits?
I'd like to add, like turricane, I mean no disrespect. I've never gone to these centers, and I understand as far as travel, everyone will be different.
I just honestly didn't know you could receive a dog with no basic travel skills. When I trained, I was told this was a must, and would be grounds for refusing my application.
The schools application explained that a dog was a travel aid, and sometimes might become sick, or unable to work, so you the applicant needed to have cane and travel ability. They also said, that they wanted the dogs used often, or the training would not be kept up for the dog. This is why I had my opinion.
The cane thing has to do with stripping you down to basic levels. The cane is
the most basic mobility tool. Learn to use that, gain skills on how to navigate
the world using it, and you can be a better guide dog user. Also, when your dog
retires, you'll have the cane skills to fall back on. That's what they try to do at
these centers, the real ones at least. They strip you down to the absolute
basics, master those, and you can master more complicated things.
also, some dogs don't check for travel skills as much as they should.
You meant some Guide dog schools don't, yes?
I think the dog guide schools give those with hearing impairments more of a break when it comes to travel skills. I mean, I am no expert at travel. I ask for assistance a lot in unfamiliar environments or crossing busy streets. Everyone has their own way of doing things. I move things around in a pan with a spatchula, but will often use my hands to feel if things are fully cooked. Not sure if this is the right way or not. I also use a meat thermometer when cooking meats. As the blindness population ages, these individuals are at risk for hearing impairments. I think that the only way to change how the NFB deals with this kind of thing is to be involved. I think people adopt parts of the philosophy that they like at the NFB and discard the rest, perhaps?
I don't think it is specific.
From what I have learned, the rules, or application process is easier.
That seems to be for everyone, because I know of some folks that hear just fine that still can't get to the next corner.
Maybe that is a bit over, but you understand. They simply have no skill at getting where they need to go.
When I trained, everyone, no matter what, had to be able to travel and use a cane.
When I was at Helen Keller they told me the best school for those with a hearing impairment was Leader Dogs.
thanks so much for your interesting and thought provoking comments on my posts. all were well written and logically thought out.
speaking from personal experience, for 53 years, I used a cane. if I say so myself, I was a pretty darned proficient traveler. if I had to do so again, I wouldreturn to that travel mode.
when I got my first guide, it was an entirely different experience. she enhanced my abilities. for example, it was so freeing to walk through a wide open space without getting caught up in all the stuff, e.g. chairs, tables, signs, etc that live in those areas. learning to trust another being was difficult but ultimately worth it.
anyone who thinks that a dog will magically solve their travel problems is deluded. we are the handler. our guide is our team mate but we are ultimately the boss.
we reward, encourage and praise. when a decision about a route has to be made, we are the one who makes it.
my husband is an excellent cane user. he doesn't see the need for a dog. this is his decision and I respect it. we are all different and that is a great thing.
what I also read is there is the nfb way and the wrong way. whatever works for us should be the best. wearing rubber gloves to wash dishes is a good idea only if we are worried about our hands getting dried out. this can make it difficult for some to read and feel things.
how we test meat or whatever is an individual preference. when I went out on my own, I basically taught myself to cook. hey, I was hungry and I had to eat right? maybe some of my techniques would give a home ec teacher heartburn. let her taste my final product and she probably will be happy. my philosophy of blindness is simple. if the average American can do it, then I can too. my brother is a certified genius. my parents told me I was not. I am average. hurray for that. so, this knowledge gives me the freedom to tackle most things. am I making sense?
As someone currently at a center, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that
the gloves thing and the not touching your food in a pan thing is not something
they teach here. I've not been required to wear gloves, and I watched as a
teacher showed a fellow student jut today how to test meat with their fingers.
So lets dispense with the misinformation.
Raises glass to fellow average people! I'm responding to Turricane's post. I've always been an average. A bit below average intelligence-wise in the field I work in. Here's to us.
The NFB has their own bible?
Sarah, note they used bible in lower case, meaning used as a euphemism. They don't have their own Bible (capital B) so far as I know. But bible (lowercase b) is a common expression for definitive work.
Pick your field, someone's done a work most people respect in that field. And their defining works are often called the bible of that field. There's a barbecue bible, for instance.
So if the NFB has a tome of some sort, containing its most predominant or meritous works, especially those its members adhere to, that would be called the nfb bible, again lowercase b.
And just to mess with you, and because it's Friday afternoon: Many have called Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" the bible of atheism. A claim best laid on other writers, in my opinion, if there could be such a bible.
An interesting discussion. I honestly wasn't sure about the idea of being fully blinded by shades at a center. Seems to me it would be good to use all tools at one's disposal. Now though I do think I'm starting to see the benefit to doing so. I'd dare say Cody put it well when talking about stripping us down and making us master the basics. Often the basics are overlooked in life. I've never learned how to do a single thing the "blind" way, whatever that is. I've pretty much had to teach myself everything. But I can cook, and clean, and everything that matters. I do wash my dishes with gloves; got to make sure all the squeege and scubies are gone. I also use my hands in conjunction with a frying pan for stabilization. Sometimes I do it just because I don't want to reach for the spatula, as long as it's something simple I know I won't burn myself on. I should also invest in a meat thermometer though. I think if I ever did go to a center, I'd be okay trying to learn while completely blinded. I know I rely on vision for doing things that I probably don't need to. For that matter, learning some proper cane techniques with a cane with an actual tip might not be a bad idea either, just so I don't have to constantly look with my limited vision at where I'm going.
Well, I see that is kind of like asking a rich man not to use his money to make his life easier while he's at the spa.
Why?
Laughing.
Freedom for the Blind is the NFB Bible, with a capital B. That said I don't worship any organization that puts out an instruction manual on how to live.
Had my x roommate tell me that no one would ever eat my cooking because I use my bare hands and sometimes touch my food like noodles etc. Of course this is mental illness and he's got his own issues verified by others. That's ok, as long as food is in my own stomach I'm happy as a clam. I didn't offer, anyway. And funnily enough, that same x roommate left his side of the kitchen filthy, left food and milk sitting out and had a pile of dirty dishes on either side of the sink which made it, gasp, harder for me who actually did do dishes to get them done. I was actually nice enough to clean his side of the kitchen one night only to never do it again I never got a thank you, and the mess just kept coming back. His excuse was that he was too tired after coming home from throwing 50 pound bags of grass seed all day.
Now keep in mind this comes from the same person that doesn't drive and says he brain doesn't work at an idiot's level to learn how to drive. So i mean take that for what you want. He is 25 and rides his bike all over town. All he does is come home and watch anime and go to bed. Spends all his money on guitars and used shit on ebay. I also suspect he's bipolar. Acts like he's got the entire world figured out. You should have heard what he told me and my other blind musician buddy one sunday night. He thought it was rich that I had waited this long before getting a job, you know, as if it was in my control. Any attempts to explain to him the blind job fenominon was nothing more than an excuse to him, but funny enough he has no degrees, and no experience but grunt work for his entire working career, even has a daughter he never sees, bitches about the mother, and then when you ask if she is mentally ill or unstable or whatever reason he thinks negative of her, he turns around and says he aught to slap you even though he was the one who offered up the information. His story is the sotry of the world. Oh yeah, and he told his parents off, has no friends, and has something deep to say about everyone. Things like "I can tell by the look in that guys eyes he did x y or z in the past, and then the next sentence he said just confirmed what I thought" blah blah blah. Hell if he was that smart why is he watching dragon ball z every night and has no friends and have a good paying job? So he kicks me out for an unknown reason, he'll just clam up and not talk to you.
If they have come out with a guide on how to live life, in the 13 years I have been in the NFB now, I have yet to see it, and I have been all over HQ, to all of the centers, one for training and the other two for events, and have been to 9 national and 11 state conventions. can you tell me where this thing is that has been hiding from me for all this time?
I refer you to line 1 of my post just before yours. Thanks. Whether it is a rule book on trainees or trainers or blindness in general it is a cook book nonetheless.
To be clear the write-up on the nfb site by KG detailing the social frustrations of blindness in society are sound ones. However, I have friends who have more of a first hand account on their militant stance on many subjects so their politics are ill informed at best. I also couldn't find anything on nfb's site talking about these misconceptions about the NFB like this thread has stirred up. Even under the FAQ it's just a vanilla Q and A about blindness in general. Even some extreme liberals that have blogs I read now and then denounce the NFB so that says something right there.
As one example I forgot to mention, I've encountered issues with friends of mine who are part of the gay community who say they are harsh against said individuals. Unsure why that is.
I think that when it all comes down to it, your generalizing a large group of people based on bad experiances you have had. you can't ask a small group of people about the NFB and then label its over thousands of members like you know them all. your fucking stupid for trying to do so, and I really thought better of you to expect you not to do such a thing. That's like someone saying he saw a blind guy rocking and so expects every blind person to rock witch we don't. I'm not giving this any more attention, because even though the NFB has a lot of things to work on, it needs to chill out in the courts, and it needs to quit preaching, it does help blind people all over the world. Its fighting and protesting and militance has helped blind kids make it through school, blind parents keep new borns from those who don't think a blind person should take care of a baby, and blind students do amazing things in college and the work place. so while your on here bashing them, We will continue to do what is right for blind people, and take the high road by just walking past nay sayers who don't think we are about shit. give me another org that has done as much as the NFB has? just one. ACB is riding our coat tails, and the world blind union is good but handles very different things. I'm waiting.
I've heard this about the LGBT community. I've been called an ally by my dear daughter, I just thought I was sticking up for people like her against people being pricks. But cool guess I got a label now. Hehe. Anyway, the reason they're hard on the gays is the reason they open every conference or dinner, etc. with a Christian invocation and one can sense the evangelical running through much of their online documents.
And until very recently, evangelicals didn't take well to the gay thing, or the bi thing either for that matter.
It is what it is. I wouldn't want my daughter to be with them, just as she doesn't go along with other places that have a firm stance like that.
you know leo and others, it's easier for us to say "yuck," "bad," or "not right" to any issue with which we are unfamiliar. lerning about and trying to understand a group of people whose ideas or life styles are foreign to us is far more difficult. as you know, I part company with the evangelical church on the gay issue. anyway the NFB is anti lgbt? why am I not surprised?
They are? I didn't know that. I know many members of the LGBT community in very high posissions in the NFB
Turricane, yes, I know your stance, and do deeply respect that. I have learned there's quite a groundswell of evangelicals who support the LGBT movement now, just in the past five years or so.
Not getting into the religion vs. lack thereof, but I have a lot of respect for people like yourself who have considered the issue, and made it work.
Before I say anything, I know gay and lesbian people who know how I feel, and respect it. I'm pointing out terrible discrimination, by a group of people. And, I can prove what I said, since I had to donate a piece of equipment that was medical, because damage was done to it. Love me or hate me, these examples happened, and I can prove them. Also, rehab services bent over backwards, for one example.
You will probably judge me, but I don't agree with the church supporting the LGBTQ community. It's my view, and I just can't change my mind, no matter how hard I've tried.
I can't believe how rudely they treat the disabled. Like they think they should get money from the government, and really, that's totally unfair. I worked for some Lesbian people, and the griped because my Brailler was loud, never even apologized that one of them ran over my cane holder, on the back of my chair. And, refused to hire my friend, who had a gay brother, because, she volunteered at the AIDs foundation, and because she was blind, they refused to hire her, for their NorthWest Aids Fundraiser Campaign. Because of that and other things, her DSB case was inappropriately closed.
I do not hate anyone that is gay or lesbian. I feel pity for the ones that mistreat others, because, they feel Entitled. I'd feel the same, if I saw a blind person mistreating others, for lack of entitlement. So, you have it. The situations can be proven.
Blessings In Christ,
Sarah
Hi,
The NFB is not against those in the LGBTQ community. Whoever posted that is very sorely mistaken. I know several people that are gay and serve in the NFB. Also, there are events at this year's national convention dedicated for just them and no one else. Maybe the topics discussed are how others react to your disability and sexual orientation-- I do not know, but the NFB is one of the very few organizations that does not discriminate against a certain group of people.
Regarding touching items with your hands while cooking, why is this a bad idea? Even chefs use their knuckles while cooking burgers sometimes to tell when it is done and to what degree such as medium or medium well. When I cook, I touch things to see if they are done, too. I think as long as you get the job accomplished, it does not necessarily matter what techniques are employed. Lastly, I have had poor experiences with the NFB. I'm not sure if this is due to the fact that I often compare myself to other blind folks. I guess what I am attempting to explain is because the NFB uses such high role models, one feels compelled to live up to that expectation or be shunned. This is not precisely what I mean, as this is difficult to explain. I disagree with soliciting assistance when absolutely necessary, whereas the NFB makes it a point in some training centers on a droup off lesson for orientation and mobility to not ask for assistance. My question is if asking for assistance is not allowed, how does the staff know? I cannot confirm if you can't ask for assistance, as I have never been on this type of lesson. Some people have told me that the driver intentionally spins the car in circles to help disorient the person. Again, not all rumors are true, so maybe someone can shed some light on this point. Also very peculiar is that I somehow get depressed around other blind people. I have no idea why this is. Really, I don't. This is most likely an issue that I have to work on individually. Maybe things have changed in the NFB, but I have no clue of knowing. Part of me wants to join the organization, while the other part of me feels that it will not be any different than before.
Hm.
Just a question.
Why would the NFB have special events for LGBTQ ?
Seems to me being blind, has nothing whatsoever to do with this.
Guess they just want to jump on the wagon maybe?
Could someone explain how seeing, or not seeing makes a specific difference if you happen to be LGBTQ ?
Maybe to hook up, or to find others like themselves. Anything that breaks the isolation is probably good.
Sarah, I read your latest post, and I'm not going to jump on your back, but I think something bears mentioning here. Please try and read this with an open mind.
You were talking about a situation where lesbians were giving you grief about a brailler being too loud.
I...don't really think their sexual orientation has anything to do with the fact that they were giving you a hard time. And I'd go a step further and wager that this is true for most other things as well.
We have to be very careful about what does and does not factor into our decision-making. If a woman was raped by a man with black hair, are all black-haired men suspect? If a man was treated badly by a tall woman, are all tall women bitches? If you got rude wait service at a restaurant from a black server, are black people rude by default? If you happen to know that someone who gave you a lot of grief was a lesbian, does their sexual orientation dictate their treatment toward you?
In every case, I'd say that the answer should be a very loud, very emphatic "no".
I think it is wisest to focus directly on what causes an issue rather than taking some other unrelated part of a person in order to pigeon-hole them. I've met some very lovely homosexual people in my life, but I bet some of them are complete assholes too. I've met some truly atrocious Christians, but I know some of them are wonderful people.
And some of my best friends are well, Christian women.
Laughing.
Thank you shep. You hit it on the head.
No, I don't think being gay or not gay has any barring on hooking up with anyone at all. Being blind might, but sexual orientation doesn't matter at all.
I agree.
Any other ideas on this?
The ACB has had blind pride events for quite a good number of years. NFB is the America of blindness organizations. Meaning, many think if it's started by the NFB, it must be new.
Cue what happens when the U.S. gets their first woman as president. While many nations around the world have had women leaders for time immemorial. Doesn't even Afghanistan have one now?
Anyhow Wayne, the ACB does it. Perhaps there is something to being blind and gay.
As odd as it sounds, I think there are some unique challenges to being both blind and having a seizure disorder, for instance, especially as it pertains to short-term memory. Since you can't catch a visual cue from your environment. I know for the America of blindness organizations, blindness trumps all, and other factors are not to be considered, but speaking from an engineering perspective, of course multiple factors would change the game in various ways for people.
I remember when people said an earring in the right ear was a signal of availability among gay men, during the 80s when in many places one could not be open about this. Visual signals like that are totally lost on us.
So I can imagine how they'd do a gays-only event.
So, you are saying it be an educational event about how to be gay, or what a blind person might wear to announce they are gay?
alright a few things. One, Nathan your thinking about a drop rout. for those who do not know what a drop rout is, its when they take you into a part of town, pulling into parking lots with multiple exits and driving in circles, and taking many misleading turns so you can't keep track of where you are. Once there, they drop you off, and its up to you to use the skills you have learned in the past 9 months, and your time in the town to figure out where you are. its like a final test, and it only happens at the end of the program, only for people who are ready for it. If you do not feel okay doing this because of fear, they will most likely make you do it anyway. if you are not ready in terms of skill or some other reason, they tend to work with you and change you rgraduation requirements just a little bit. so yes, this is true. I did 4 drop routs. one away from traffic in a quiet area so I had to use sun q's and experimentation to find my way back, one in a parking lot lined on all 4 sides with busy streets with high traffic, with no sun so I had to use the direction of the traffic and land marks I remembered to find my way back, one behind a big store that I shopped at a lot but they knew I never went behind, so had to experiment until I found something I knew, and one by an instructers house that I had been to a couple times, again I used sun q's and land marks I knew to find my way back. I tell you all of this because they will never put you inj a situation they don't think you can handle it. They are very good at seeing through BS, and won't go easy on you if your just making excuses. But if they see that you are really trying and you can't do it, they will come get you and give you something else.
Please don't tell me using navigation tools like gps was against the rules.
They are in the drop tests. The point of a drop test is not to figure out if you
know how to use a navigation aid. Its to tell if you know how to actually get
yourself around without one. that way, when you do have one, you're better
than a person who is utterly and entirely dependent on them. Just like the
person who knows how to figure out a route, is better off than the person who
only knows one way to get to one place. Its more tools you can use.
That's why, when soldiers are learning land navigation, they start out by using
a compass, not a gps locator. yeah, they'll get to use those too, but first they
learn to use a map. And when they're dropped in the middle of the woods,
which they are, they're only given a compass and a knife. Its called training,
maybe one of these days you'll actually get some. Because to judge from your
posts you've made on here Chillin', chillin is about all you know how to do.
agree with silver. If it wasn't for the kind of training I received through the center in Minnesota, I would not be where I am today. I would not have had the strength to leave the nest, return to school, move to a new town, and venture out on my own, learning my way around a place that has changed some in the 12 years since I was here last.
I am eternally grateful for all the challenges in life, as it is through these we learn about perseverance, resilience, determination, and how to problem-solve and move forward no matter what our circumstances may be.
I like that text. Sound simply fun.
I did something like it when I was being taught mobility, but more then once. Kind of like a game. My sister to this day can't lose me in my city. She's tried. Laughing.
To this day, I still don't use a GPS.